Here Come The Law....Question

[ChristyACB]

All,

I'm continuing my research prior to the finalization of my building plans and beginning the process of getting things through committee and have found something that makes me a bit nervous.

I went to the cv main site, found that there is a Wanted tab under the PD and clicked it just to see.

I'm shocked!

There are FAR more than average number of people who are "wanted" compared to the population. And those are just the ones that didn't appear, didn't pay or fled. That means the number captured for crimes far exceeds even that.

But then I started looking at the "crimes" these people are wanted for and I have to say, I took a big giant two steps backward in my whole life plan! About a fourth of those "wanted criminals" are wanted...I mean actually wanted, here's your nice criminal record and thanks, but your life is now ruined...for stuff like Ordinance - Not Maintaining Property and Ordinance - Improper Storage.

Ummm....Improper Storage is now enough to require an official visit to the courtroom as a criminal? And if you don't show up or don't pay a fine you become a wanted escaped criminal?

I'm beyond shocked and beyond dismayed to see that.

I'm a firm believer in upholding community standards, but making people have a criminal record for putting potted plants under the carport is so far outside the pale that I have to reconsider everything I've planned for all these years.

(Also, I did a quick google and records search and found that one of those people who is "wanted" is actually a really old person and is "wanted" for Ordinance - Not Maintaining Property - Failure to Pay Time Pay). Since when do we make octogenarians criminals for not mowing their lawn on time?

I'd sure appreciate some input from residents there. I don't want to get old in a place where I can be made into a criminal for putting my flower pots in the wrong place and I have to reconsider everything now.

Thanks!
Christy

[buckwheat]

Well it only became that way when CV became a city. They have really gone to far but it helps generate money thru the city court. The PZ people think that everyone has money and they must think of CV as Scottsdale AZ. (a very nice and very upscale area) This is a low end retirement area with a high rental areas. There is an old saying "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken Sh-t". This city government is really zoning crazy and fee crazy for such a rural area. So you might want to rethink your plans and look into building in a not "city government " environment. There are some nice places in Sharp/Fulton counties that are not in cities. That would be my choice. My wife and I are looking at leaving the village just for some of the concerns that you have found out about. You might want to check out places around Springfield MO. Similair cost of living area.

[ChristyACB]

I've done more searching and I've made good headway in reading the entire list of Ordinances passed in CV. I have to say, I'm shocked.

In a normal world, Ordinances are not criminal. They are something entirely different and do not produce a criminal record with ramifications such as restrictions and removal of privileges normally allowed to all free citizens of the USA. In effect, not mowing the lawn for a total of 20 days can result in the loss in ability for a professional certification, the revocation of a CCW and many, many other ramifications since those ramifications are held under state and federal law and not subject to grandfathering. Meaning, again, that putting a flower pot under a carport can result in some other restriction...such as DNA collection, habitual criminal points and even publicly displayed information on that person...based on changes in future law at any other level.

I've done some sheparadizing of the case law, checked and opinion by David Choate and some other research and here is what I think:

Someone in power at the time in CV didn't understand the law, the process of law or the difference between a crime and a violation of a non-criminal ordinance.

I'm thinking of pursuing this in the courts or via a direct appeal to the CC or state reps for investigation. It is clearly unconstitutional to restrict a person's rights as a citizen by criminalizing non-criminal behavior. Mowing the law to 9 inches vice 8 inches is not criminal. Putting flower pots under the carport is not criminal. Bringing an old chair outside under the shade to strip and refinish and making the dire mistake of leaving to go eat lunch is not a crime. Period.

Based on this alone, I have to re-do years worth of planning. Even the land I'm researching for purchase right outside CV is going to have to be more carefully handled because apparently CV has intentions of taking it "under the sphere of influence", which would automatically impose, against my will, their laws.

I'm really shocked that there isn't more talk about this. There are more than 400% the average "criminals" in that area and bench warrants for parking a car somewhere other than under a carport is not a reason to get a bench warrant out on you.

Would love to hear others.

[ChristyACB]

Of interest to anyone out there who may also be frantically examining anything in their property before they become a wanted criminal...I found this official opinion regarding 3 very similar ordinances in the Arkansas Attorney General legal opinion archive.

http://ag.arkansas.gov/opinions/docs/2001-132.html

Definite case for any of those who are being persecuted by this system of bad laws for a big whomping constitutional case!

[buckwheat]

This has been a big problem since incorporation, each mayor is trying to create the perfect community totally disregarding the personal freedoms of the citizens. Never had this problem when SID was in charge. Yes there were problems with SID but never like what is going on now. Voting on salaries for alderman, now we have city property tax ( which we never had before) just county and sid assments. The continuation of the deer hunt again this year which was to be a one time item. The city court was created to generate revenue for the city. (that is documented) Glad to see you check out the city ordinances. I liked the one about a fence could not be over 5 feet high. Most wood fencing comes pre cut at 6 feet. Also funny that a home owner must keep their property nice but a land owner (no house) is not addressed. Way tooooo much government in the village, much better under county and sid rules. Have you checked with any others about these rules and how people feel. The one that got many upset was the golf cart rule. Man that was stupid of the city.

[ChristyACB]

There is definitely a slippery slope that it looks like CV is just starting to slide down.

Based on several of the AG and ASCJ legal opinions and briefs offered that directly relate to CV laws and ordinances, there are 3 which are specifically illegal in Arkansas under state law, 4 that breech constitutional rights and have been struck down in other locations, those 4 and 3 more that specifically breech Arkansas constitutional requirements. Not good. Leaves CV open to huge lawsuits. In fact, several of those people on the "Most Wanted" list have a pretty solid footing for legal recourse that would leave CV broke for a good long time if successful.

No one else has piped up on their thoughts yet and there is no other place that I can find where CV'ers regularly congregate online to ask.

Also, I was looking to purchase that last portion of Big Oaks but while I was doing this research I found out that CV had annexed them and zoned them R1!!! Who does that? Who zones a 5 acre farmette meant for a 4 unit livestock (as in 4 horses, 8 goats or 4 cows) as a residential place that allows no livestock of any kind and requires it be mowed to 10 inches or they commit a misdemeanor? I mean...seriously. Unless I can get that re-zoned and specifically (and in writing for perpetuity) get it exempted from CV's draconion laws regarding R1, I guess I won't be buying it.

And, based on what I've found so far, unless I'm willing to invest a whole lot of time, money, effort and energy to "maybe" get some of that junk repealed, I can't move there. No way can I put myself on a road to becoming a "Most Wanted" criminal the day I break a hip and can't mow or do anything that violates some non-defined aesthestic that is entirely the discretion of a cop. Laws were meant to be understandable and consistently defined, not vague like that.

I'm really disappointed and I can't believe I missed that for so long. After years and years of working the plans and logistics for moving there and arranging everything in my life around that eventuality, I have to basically start over. And I have no idea where to start! LOL...gotta love that.

[EMA]

I haven't posted much but I read about once a week. You bring up some good points and you may be right, but I wouldnt worry about it too much. The wanted page is big but you have to understand a good chunk of them people are not residents, but happen to be arrested inside village. 2 of those faces I recognize and wouldnt walk across the street to p** on them if they were on fire. No good bums and good riddance if they left town anyway. Most people in this town are good people and I have yet to know 1 person who was ever arrested because they had too many flower pots outside or their grass was too high. You're worrying too much, but yes you probably have some good points and maybe the village is opening themselves up to legal problem I just dont know those things. The big govt in the village is something I would laugh at a tad as it seems like which day of the week it is. sometimes they get enforcing and most days they don't. You have to understand the city employees and the police aren't paid very much. Take it for what its worth but I dont think you need to worry about anything. My wife's friend got pulled over last week she said for not stopping all the way at a stopsign and all they did was tell her to slow down. Depends on the mood I guess. My taxes for my house in village are dirt low so I'm not complaining. try living in otherv places for cheaper and a golf course i can walk on any day of the week and never wait. works for me. Deer hunt no big deal, we have too many starving deer every winter anyway and I dont like to see them anaimals suffer any. Ladst two cents is I dont have any issue with regular wooded lots being left alone, but if you have a house at least keep it looking respectable. We've got a trailer park section and it's a riff raff area if you ask me, and we have another area on the east side close to the 4 lane that dont look too good but every town has their slum areas. doesn't seem to bother the lakefronters too much though. Chrisy I'd say you're worrying a tad more than most people do here. I'll run this by a few of my morning buddies holding morning court and see what they think.

[buckwheat]

Try villager2ya.5.forumer.com it is a very good forum. Lots of helpful people. Also what EMA states should make you worry. One day it is ok and the next day you get arrested or cited. One problem with the village is people DON'T get involved, they just want to play golf and be left alone. Not a problem until some people decide to run the village their way and make rules that effect all of us. Used to be a simple life style but now let's become a big city and have problems that were never really there until someone created them.

Like I stated earlier we are looking in to southwest Missouri to make a new life. We thought the village would work but each year more government and stupid regulations just keep coming. I wish you well in your search for the life style that you seek. But do rethink and keep checking on the village and it's way of doing business.

[ChristyACB]

EMA - Thank you for your reply and I'll be interested to hear what the rest of the morning buddies say. In response to what you said, I have to say that is the main worry. If a law is not enforced one day but is the next and there is no specific legal standard for the enforcement of a law, then the law is too dangerous to the regular person to be left in play. While I agree that it may seem like I'm worrying too much if you've never had to worry about it yourself, but it is plain that at any time a deficit in finances or a "tightening" up of enforcement in order to improve the CV image and attract more population means that at any time, anyone living there can wind up with a criminal record.

The mere possibility that a person can become a criminal, with a record of such and all the restrictions that brings in different levels of government, for an act that is in no way criminal and can't be construed as such is wrong.

An example more to the point: Other crimes with the same severity as these are classed would include assault, petty theft, dui, leaving the scene of an accident. In what universe should bringing trash bins back from the curb after noon count as a criminal offense on par with assault? And since most people work during the day, that means that dozens or perhaps hundreds of people are committing a misdemeanor every single trash day. Each one of them can, on any day the CV decides it needs cash, be prosecuted just like the bar room brawlers and thieves. Is that right or moral or even constitutional? No, it isn't.

The most basic and logical test of a law is that it is clear to the perpetrator when they have or have not committed an infraction of the law. You either rape or you don't. You either steal or you don't. You either kill or you don't. In each case, any reasonable person can know if they have committed a crime. In some of the laws of CV, the person has no way of knowing if they have committed a crime. Who decides if their new sculpture meets any aesthetic test? And how can any reasonable person protect themselves from the arbitrary and uneven application of such a law? They can't. Not even the ones prosecuting can. That means it fails the legal test most basic to all laws in this country.

I agree with you that CV has a big challenge to keep their little burg attractive to a "better element" that it so wants to attract there. But the bottom line is that there is a pretty sizable population that is simply trashy. Making these laws in order to only apply them to this trashy element to try to make them move is a very close definition of the "Jim Crow" laws enacted only to specifically target minorities and make them leave. And, it hasn't worked. There are still a lot of very trashy people there because of renters. Next they'll make renting a misdemeanor.

As for the list of Most Wanted, look at the crimes. The trashy element is certainly there for real crimes or infractions like DUI and animal cruelty and what not, but keep looking and you'll see a whole lot of people there who are simply there for not paying a fine for "Ordinance-Not Maintaining Property" or "Ordinance something else". Clearly, since one of them is listed under spokeo as a 70+ year old reverend who is frequently listed in the Villager obits and announcements as the presiding minister, not everyone who is cited for Ordinances is a trashy person.

Once I really got into the doing of the research in order to work with the architect, I found something surprising. The element CV most wants to attract: people of higher education, disposable income and independent incomes who will build nice homes and use (which means support) the facilities are also the ones who will do the most homework before putting up their half million dollar home. They'll be the ones most put off by the lack of security represented by the ability of CV to ruin a life, a career, a record and take a home for things that can't be protected against. "Keep your home nice and you won't have to worry.", is a pretty vague message to invest a life savings into and it is just as vaguely threatening. What happens as we get old and the lawn mowing guy doesn't show up? Do we scurry our 70+ year old arthritic frames out into the 90 degree heat and mow in fear for our homes and lives? You say that's not happened, but the law is there so who can possibly say that it won't?

As there are 2 other people I know who also have, or rather had, plans for CV. One of them is searching for land elsewhere because they're home can't be slapped up like a stick home in 6 months and will probably take 2 years start to finish, which not even the successful appeal of all extensions would be allowed in CV. So, now a beautiful stone mansion that certainly would have enhanced CV isn't to be built because of their own draconian laws. While this friend has said that they might be able to squeeze it in in the 545 days, any delay would put them over and the laws are written such that CV can simply take it. Whose to say some envious city councilman might decide he'd rather live there and find a way to put a lien on it and take it. Your laws are written in such a way that there is simply NO defense against such a taking...it is too vague to protect against. A simple $20 mistake, heck...a 1 cent...mistake on payments for any permit allows CV to take a home of any value at all. Even if it was a mansion spread on 50 lots a single penny mistake allows CV to take that home, lock stock and barrel.

The other sadly admitted to me that it was the laws also but that she didn't want to burst my bubble all these years.

That is 3 people (well, two couples and me), all exactly what CV most hopes to attract that they have done exactly the opposite to. Most annoying since all three of us had invested time, money and energy in preparing to go there.

I'm preparing my brief to send up via Ar Govt chains requesting a justice's official opinion on the laws. Those take a whole lot of time to get usually, but I figure I owe it to myself and my years of planning to at least give it a try. If they choose to address my request and give a legal opinion, then I'll be sure that CV city council gets it with an official request for the repeal and re-wording of the laws to reflect actual legality and to address the loopholes that allow CV such arbitrary power over any homeowner there. Whether or not I'll go far enough to try to get zoning variances that are more in line with the modern world (which is home centered, independence minded and sustainability focused) is entirely dependent on how successful I am with the Justice.

[Friend]

Hi Forum,

I regret not having checked in for a little while and don't want to have Christy think that she is out on a limb here. Thanks to the other posters already. Let me try to give a nuanced response. Firstly, I have long supported reasonable code enforcement and enforceable community standards, One form of theft of property is bad neighborly behaviors that impact property values and basic enjoyment. Particularly infuriating is rental situations that have indifferent and largely unaccountable landlords that don't have to live next to the neglected situations often created. There are many responsible landlords, but the irresponsible ones need to be made accountable.

None of this,however, impacts one iota what Christy is saying. Ordinances must be clear, not hold illegal or irregular criminal sanctions, and should not ever be open to arbitrary enforcement based on nebulous definitions and so on. I know well the "don't worry" philosophy but I do worry when anything is on the books that can be misused or result -- even in the extreme -- in criminal sanctions for clearly civil issues. We have an excellent Code Enforcement unit right now. I trust them 100%. They have done great work and don't get thanked nearly enough. We have seen the Village much improved by their work. This is not for me about Code Enforcement people at all. Again, I know their excellent and heartfelt work has made a huge difference.

Rather as a matter of principle, simply as a US citizen, I see Christy is concerned about basic legal principles of protection being in the written code to stop the criminal sanctions. I agree that we need to be "with the program" of basic and normal legal modes if in anyway we are not at the moment. I have not researched this in CV and am no lawyer. I am merely responding to the concerns expressed about always keeping civil and criminal matters separate and having the codes reflect these differences and delimit powers accordingly. Christy seems concerned about that having been accomplished in the typical ways one sees elsewhere.

I have heard the expression, "Hard cases make bad laws." What Christy is concerned about would seem a case of that principle. There is a real problem that needs address of folks who really do need to clean up their act to meet basic community standards. However, the legal principles really matter as well. I take that to be the core of what Christy is saying. Both the "means" and the "ends" matter.

Finally, there is a group of folks who feel the SID was the right approach. I listen when they speak. Rarely, however, is it ever mentioned that the SID was unelected and self-perpetuating. This also has its own set of representation issues.City government allows for political process like what Christy is engaging. I don't doubt that good souls served us well on the SID. Again Christy's point, if I get it right, is that legal principles need to be gotten right and that "local conditions" should never trump basic universal legal procedures and protections no matter how well-intended the motives.

[ChristyACB]

Friend,

Yep. Exactly!

Best,
Christy

[Chuck]

Hi Christy, I also think you may be worrying to much about living in the village, building here, and code enforcement. I am not a lawyer, and some of this thread got pretty technical for me. I was wondering if you have actually spoke with City Hall regarding these issues.
We are typically a blue collar retirement area, and we welcome all to move here if they respect the everyday life we all enjoy here, with some basic rules set up for keeping things that way. We are not seeking out only the wealthy. Some folks suggested switching to another group to discuss this. I thought that was pretty comical. I was at one time active there at a point that when code enforcement was being structured, and I think we played a part of that process, with our thoughts and ideas. It has now changed to a more Topix like group.
Our building code uses the rules of the international building code. Once you are set to build, you have 1 year to complete the outer shell of the house. This is very typical everywhere. Several beautiful large homes have been built here in recent years and never had trouble with the timeline that is used here, so I am a bit confused as to the folks you refered to as not having enough time alloted to build here.
We did have a situation in the last couple years when developers built 3 foundations and let them sit, because of funding problems. They were given a lot of time to make this right before the foundations were removed.
Code enforcement does not issue anything before speaking with the people involved, to explain the issue unless they live out of town. I believe the following is the method they use. They are given 30 days to correct the problem. At that time, if not resolved, they are issued a letter, giving them another 30 days again. If not resolved at that time, they are fined, given 20 days to correct the issue, or appear in court. If they do not appear they are placed on the wanted list for unpaid fines, but it remains a civil issue, and is not placed on their criminal record. At this time, code enforcement has never went to that point. In my opinion, at the point of not appearing, the work should be completed by the village and the cost added to the tax role for that property.
Code enforcement has done a great job improving the village. Ozark Acres has had more severe code issues and for years has been lax. They now see the improvements in our village, and have taken a more proactive code enforcement policy also. They are getting a lot of complaints from residents who feel their laws are too much, but if you drive through and compare both areas, you can see what good code enforcement does to an area.
Code enforcement also has a plan that allows people to work off their fines. Last month close to 5000.00 in fines were worked off in this manner. The rental situation is improving also, but still needs more pressure put on the rental owners to keep their homes up to code on the inside, so we do not have a population of renters who have no reason to keep things up, if even their landlords don't care.
Cherokee Village is a great place to live, but like all areas is not perfect. In regards to zoning, anything other than residential within the village limits, is controlled by one person.
I do agree with the annexation of the land that is surrounded by CV property.

[ChristyACB]

Chuck,

The other person building that is looking for another place to build because of the insecurity of the laws in CV is the one who turned me on to DAC ART. I also intend to build one of those (assuming it can get passed). It looks very like this one but bigger at the wings and I'm hoping for enough of a slope for 2 levels in back with only one in front. http://www.dial-institute.com/content/cole.html

The one that looks most like their intended plan is this one already built in Birmingham http://homepage.mac.com/gaudel/HTMLSITE/house/index.html

Because of the weight of these homes, the foundation is in another league entirely from any wood or concrete home and precision is crucial in the most extreme way. Successful dac homes allow the foundation to cure a bit longer and it is a massive foundation. The blocks are individually manufactured man-made limestone, which is stronger than regular limestone. They are placed in and it must be exact since each one will fit only one spot in one way. They are multi layer and 12 to 16 inches wide with varying lengths depending on the engineering, but some are as long as 20 feet. They are difficult and time consuming to transport and it can take days to take a bunch down and reset them if anything is off before solidifying them with the concrete inside the cavity (reinforced with non reactive metals to avoid corrosive cracks in a couple of hundred years).

The average time to build one of these with one of the rare engineering crews qualified to is about 2.3 years. And that is near the source...none this far north have been completed in that amount of time and none of substantial size.

In short, to create this edifice that is so strong and firmly trenched that it can be lived in indefinitely and is almost like building something new into the earth takes time. It isn't stick built and isn't like normal housebuilding at all. It must be done right.

I've seen one very small house down there that people got in a hurry with due to building restrictions and it looks bad and the slightly off placement means the virtue of strength it had is negated in many ways.

As far as the laws, while they may not normally be used that way a good many of them ARE written in such a way that the slightest rule normally associated with HOA rules has been made into a misdemeanor...a crime. That is unsat. I'm still working on my brief for the house rep for that area to take to the justice. That will make this process less painful in the end because one the ark justice says that x, y and z are illegal in the state, against the state constitution or what-not, then really there's no argument or drama. It just has to be changed. That's really better than going in asking for it to be changed, worrying about retribution while we wait a year for the justice and then getting even more retribution because someone has publicly lost a fight and face.

HOAs are one thing. When a community becomes a city, then they give up the ability to make arbitrary rules based on a closed community. In effect, they must abide by the law when making laws. I like the idea of CV and I like the idea of a good place to live that has people of responsible character there, but there is a limit. Anyone who will give up a lifetime of freedom for a moment of safety deserves everything they get....or something like that...is a wise sentiment. Treating a city like a HOA hasn't kept the trashy element out, making a criminal law that applies to anyone who doesn't take their trash back to the curb by noon on trash day isn't going to punish the trashy, it makes potential victims of injustice of those who aren't trashy.

[Chuck]

Hi Christy, Those are some beautiful homes. I found the links very interesting. I had seen a couple of the links about a year ago doing some construction research. I have a friend in Evening Shade that just finished his home. It is quite simplistic in design, but the concrete structure is very similar in dimension and strength to the DAC ART home. He also used solar and geothermal in his design. I spoke to him over the weekend, and his highest electric bill so far has been 31.00. I am sure your home building meets both the Southern building code and the International building code. I am sure if you presented your plan to the city building inspector, given the construction factors, that he would be agreeable with your needed time-line.
That is what I was trying to explain. The community in Cherokee Village is a handshake community. It is laid back, quiet, easy going, with beautiful wildlife. I have dealt personally with City Hall for the 9 years I have been here, and they are always friendly and easy to get along with. It seems that there is some misconception that they are out prowling the streets to issue as many warnings as they can. That is simply not true. In the spring of this year I started a bath and kitchen remodel. My friend from Evening Shade did the deconstruction, and placed all the debris on a side parking spot in front of my home. It was there about a week and the new enforcement officer drove by and asked what we were doing. We told him about the remodel, and that the pile of debris would remain there for another week or so, so we could have it all taken off at one time. He simply said "that's fine" and drove off. Now if he came by a month later and the pile was getting higher, and not removed, he would at first give me a verbal warning. I would understand if he did that. Many of their drive bys are from neighbours expressing concern that junk has been in somebody's yard for a long period of time.
In regards to the trashy people, I'm not real comfortable with a blanket statement like that. I treat people as I would like to be treated. With Arkansas being one of the poorest states in the country, it should be understandable that in impoverished areas, there is more criminal activity. I don't really see that in the majority of the residents here. In the surrounding areas it might be more so, but not in a retirement community like Cherokee Village is.

[Tatercreek49]

Thanks Chuck- You have re-comfirmed some of the positive aspects of the village. I find the laws and by-laws reasonable and in alliance with most of the communities we have here in Florida.
When I purchased my lots about 4 years ago, the first thing I did was subscribe to the Villager Journal. Altho, it appears, they are changing- such as downsizing in recent months, they still provide a vast source of information. I chose to receive the printed edition and have it delivered to my home here in Florida.
I felt comfortable buying from the company I chose- Sunspring Properties- and have a total of 4 properties in the area. If I was apprehensive about the local officials or zoning etc- I would not have purchased. I throughly researched the pros and cons of the area , and even after the tornado and ice storm, decided this was the place I would possibly like to retire.

Barb